An Alternative Perspective - Let's Move On

Related Topics

Back to Youth Service

Back to Home Page

Antisocial Behavior Compulsory Education Conduct Disorder

Confidence Building Continuing Education Crisis Intervention

"Paul Burgess" paul.burg...@exoro.co.uk

Thanks to Wayne Bulit for the obvious effort put in to answering some of the issues raised here over the past few days.
I suspect that you will not convince many who have posted, me included on some points - so be it, but thanks for putting your head on the block. Hope you manage to keep it. We need people like you who are at least prepared to come here, take the flack and enter a debate I personally strongly disagree with the way that things have been done. I worked as a change management consultant for a number of years and this one seems to have broken all the rules. However it is too late to change that -
20/20 hindsight etc. Let's move on What is a crying shame and angers me most of all is that we should never have been forced to consider this route.
Scouting is a desperately undervalued national ***et as far as politicians and the general public are concerned.
We are not noticed because we are generally good guys who get on and do a good job with often difficult but usually rewarding young people, often unnoticed.
Fact: The Scout ***ociation has over 400,000 members, many of whom could otherwise be roaming the streets committing acts of vandalism etc. were it not for Scouting. Hard to ***ess the value to the nation but must run into millions a year.
Fact The Government schemes for combating anti social behaviour in young people, who do roam the streets committing acts of vandalism etc., are currently costing the country in excess of ??200m with limited success.
Fact The Army Cadet force receives tens of millions of pounds from public funds each year.
Fact The Scout ***ociation receives ???? per annum in government/lottery funding (Perhaps you could fill in the blanks on this one Wayne?) I think the disgrace is that it has come to the point where we have to take hard decisions re. camp sites. It is ridiculous that we should be forced to consider disposing of any of these fine and irreplaceable ***ets.
Perhaps now is the time for the movement as a whole to mobilise behind the CoC and persuade government that this situation is no longer tolerable and have them understand the consequences and the potential m***ive costs of allowing this ***et to decay.
We are a national ***et, delivering immense value to young people and the community at no cost to central government.
If the government match funded the Scout (& Guide) ***ociation against volunteer time expended our problems would be much reduced, if not over.
(Matched funding against volunteer unpaid time is common in voluntary sector funding bids) Further Facts There are Scouts in every constituency in the UK There are Scouts in most local council wards There are Scout Councils in each administrative County The movement has never mobilised effectively to exploit its potential political muscle. We have never been a issue - perhaps now is the time.
Remember votes make prizes!
The CoC should take the lead with a national awareness and fund raising campaign 1000 times bigger than anything we have done before, focussed on the national press, MP's and national government, backed by an orchestrated and co-ordinated campaign at local and county level and supported by the total membership.
This way perhaps we could provide centres of excellence and have money to do the many things that are needed at central and local levels without the current constant round of begging from parents and for crumbs from the lottery table.
We have the infrastructure and the experience to deliver better value for money in terms of positive outcomes (sorry PC speak) than most government funded projects. What we do as a self-funding organisation is amazing.
So lets stop dissecting the bones of what has already happened. Admit that mistakes were made and move forward. Perhaps the target should be to get ??50m in additional grant funding.  Then we can argue how best to spend it -
perhaps adding to not reducing the number of camp sites.
By the way for those who like me believe that the shortage of leaders is the greatest threat to scouting, the visibility and positive reaction that such a campaign would generate nationally could go a long way to solving the problem.
Here endeth the sermon (Ducks to avoid flames!) Paul Burgess GSL 1st Speldhurst & Langton Scout Group

"Paul Burgess" paul.burg...@exoro.co.uk

Sorry Wayne didn't mean to misspell you name ...

"Dave Mayall" d...@research-group.co.uk

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

"GAGS" absolutecrapgags...@craplineone.net

Yes thanks are due.
There will always be differences of opinion!
No that's not right! I felt he came here to put a case for the scheme. He did so as a Scouter.  He commented on matters that are now in the Scouting public domain. Every Scouter, whatever role they have, must have that right.
I felt he needed to engage with Scouters on the issue. I felt he saw an opportunity to do so. I don't think what he said was bound by any consideration of his Scouting role. His comments were personal and based solely on what was public. He offered no criticism and betrayed no confidence and neither was it his intention to do so.
There should be no question of putting one's head on a block!
 We need people like you who are at least prepared to We do need the upper echelons of the movement to engage more. We do need people to realise that opposing views are not always "negative".
The executive must be open to question. The exexcutive must always have it's ears on! Two ears, one mouth - twice as much listening, half as much talking!
Sure the issue will move on in time, but many are seeing flaws in the process. Those won't go away.
A little more forethought and foresight?
I will always argue for the executive to be able to make executive decisions, otherwise chaos will result. However, it should be understood that not everything  requires an executive decision or even a decision.
Sometimes one needs to step back a little from making a decision and maybe even let others make the decision or drive the decision making process.
generally good guys who get on and do a good job with often >difficult but usually rewarding young people, often unnoticed.
Yes for all our efforts on image and value we still remain largely un-noticed.
Very limited success.
I have no problem with that per se.
I think you'll find that Scouting receives quite a large sum of money, however, it's probably nowhere near as much as it should/could receive. When it's looked at on a per member basis it probably is no more than a few quid.
A lot of national "institutions" have been byp***ed by the Lottery; that's not the SA's fault, it's the government's fault. However, I don't see Scouting aggressively lobby the government like many other overlooked institutions for a change in funding policy. It's got to be more pro-active.
Scouting should be in there fighting at every opportunity. It may well be already (as no doubt someone will say), but it's not making a lot of noise!
Difficult decisions, difficult choices, have to made sometimes.
I think many will look at how much Lottery money for example is just sitting there accumulating in the Funding Bodies bank accounts and think what if Scouting had just 1% of this? How many CofE's could be built with this? How many existing sites would not have to be threatened? That's what disappoints people. Now that's a government fault, but what are we doing about it?
Persuasion should already be on-going. Noisy persuasion. Very noisy persuasion!
Sadly even a deaf person would get a headache seemingly with all the noise they can hear.
We do keep saying that! Sadly we keep saying it to ourselves!
Of course.
Leader resource is the big issue. It has not been tackled yet as a the sole key issue. It seemingly gets subsumed in other issues or left as a local issue.
Watch out for the bandwidth police! ;-) Roast Duck! Very nice.
GAGS

"Tony Ransley" t...@ransleyt.fsnet.co.uk

Thank you Paul Anyone who knows me will know that I agree with every word written, but it is nice to hear someone eles say it.
The total goverment grant to the scout movement this year was     ?? 300,000 ring fenced for explorers.
The funding for the Cadet forces was 50 million a year last time I checked.
No one should expect any help from the lottery this year as their spokesperson stated at the national youth workers conference that their priority was no longer ordinary youth groups put projects which targeted ' young people taking part in anti social behaviour as this may as a result of feeling excluded'.
YIS Tony Do you hear the people sing,

"Manky Badger" m...@idontwantspamdotpuritancotfreeserve.co.uk

I'd be wary of comparisons made between Scouting and the Cadet forces.
Perhaps, with no intended insult to the Cadet forces, I could relate my experiences on this matter.
Many years ago as a teenaged member of the Boys Brigade doing his "Queen's Badge" I helped organise a hiking - camping competition which was known as the May Meander. The idea was that teams of  three teenagers would hike cross country from a starting point to a checkpoint. On arrival at a checkpoint there would be some task to perform, physical or mental, and the map reference of the next checkpoint would be given. Teams would progress thus for a distance of some fifteen miles when there would then be an overnight camp and a further ten miles hiked the next day. Points would be awarded on camping ability and on the tasks performed at checkpoints, and points deducted for lateness at checkpoints.
In today's Scouting calendar this activity would be nothing out of the ordinary, but for the Boys Brigade of the late seventies it was quite an innovation.
To my great surprise, this event was an overwhelming success. Even though I left the Boys Brigade shortly after the first Meander, the May Meander continued as an annual event for nearly twenty years.
Although the first year was Boys Brigade only, in subsequent years the event was opened to all youth organisations. Over the years, as well as Boys and Girls Brigades, Army Cadets, Air Force Cadets, Scouts and Guides all took part: after all, it is traditionally the sort of thing that the Brigades, Scouts & Guides and Cadets all do well. I was fortunate enough to be invited to help with the running of the event each year, and it was during this period that I was able to make a direct comparison between Scouts and Cadets.
While I realise that generalisations can be misleading, and as a matter of course should be avoided, it was my experience that, for nearly twenty years, every Scout team did well and every Cadet team did abysmally. Which in retrospect illustrates the differences in the nature of the two organisations.
For example while both teach map reading, we in Scouting instill a sense of respect for the world around us. This was illustrated by the fact that when hiking, Scout teams would successfully follow footpaths. Cadet teams would invariably try to follow overhead electrical lines or rivers or other such landmarks; generally getting themselves lost.
When challenged about using public rights of way, Cadets would have no idea of what was meant. Their leaders would generally laugh contemptuously about using footpaths; the idea being that with a comp*** bearing you can just walk the quickest route (a straight line) regardless of what may come in the way. "You don't follow footpaths when Jonny Foreigner is going to kill you" was only one of the comments I heard.
To their credit the manners of Cadet teams were impeccable. Whereas the Scouts would often be cheeky to the leaders, with the Cadets it would be "Sir" or "Ma'am" every time. However this iron discipline would often be the Cadets undoing. When hiking cross country and camping, a degree of initiative is required. Unfortuantely this initiative was usually lacking in the Cadet teams. If a Cadet leader would give orders, the Cadets could not be bettered. However, left to their own devices, the Cadets could not perform any action, no matter how essential or trivial. They seemd unable to function without orders. When told to set up their camp, a Scout team would together put up a tent, lay out bedding, prepare a meal, etc... as a team.
The Cadet teams would need detailed step by step instructions for each task, and then would usually argue among themselves over who should do what. The teamwork that helped a Scout team work together was generally lacking with the Cadets. Each group of Cadets would have an older "Sergeant" who would tell a slightly younger "corporal" do the work. This "corporal" would not do anything himself other than bully the younger team members who generally had only been Cadets themselves for a few moonths and knew very little outdoor skills.
To the Cadet's credit their equipment was usually state of the art. However this would be of no help to them if they could not use that equipment. I can distinctly recall on one occasion a young cadet in tears because he could not get his tent up. When I tried to help it became apparent that he was not erecting a tent; he was trying to put up the bag that another team's tent had arrived in!
On another occasion three teenaged girls were sobbing at 2am because their "combat dress" (what I would describe as a soldier costume) was not keeping them warm. They had not been issued with sleeping bags because, as the Cadet leader said, "I did arctic training without a sleeping bag." On yet another occasion a Cadet team which was over three hours late at a checkpoint was found some five miles away heading in the wrong direction: they had abandoned using map and comp*** to find the checkpoint in favour of something they called a "box search." I could list many more incidents illustrating the superiority of the Scout teams over the Cadet teams. Suffice it to say that at the last May Meander all competing Cadet teams were sent home half way through the event as it was painfully apparent that due to their regimented approach they were not able mentally to take part in such an event.
I may seem somewhat critical of the Cadet forces. I intend no insult to them. They are carrying out their objectives as we are carrying out ours.
However where our aim is to help young people to take up their place in society, the aim of the Cadets is to help young people to take up their place in the armed forces.
Let us bear in mind the aim of the Scout movement when we look at other youth activities.
MB

"Nick Pedley" nicholasped...@npedley.freeserve.co.uk

This sounds very much like the Waltham Walk which is run from our Scout hall every year. We entered three teams who all enjoyed it, could it be the same event under a new name (in Essex)?
Nick

"Manky Badger" m...@idontwantspamdotpuritancotfreeserve.co.uk

These days it's rather common, but in East Sussex in the early 80s it was quite a novelty.

"GAGS" absolutecrapgags...@craplineone.net

Yes thanks are due.
There will always be differences of opinion!
No that's not right! I felt he came here to put a case for the scheme. He did so as a Scouter.  He commented on matters that are now in the Scouting public domain. Every Scouter, whatever role they have, must have that right.
I felt he needed to engage with Scouters on the issue. I felt he saw an opportunity to do so. I don't think what he said was bound by any consideration of his Scouting role. His comments were personal and based solely on what was public. He offered no criticism and betrayed no confidence and neither was it his intention to do so.
There should be no question of putting one's head on a block!
 We need people like you who are at least prepared to We do need the upper echelons of the movement to engage more. We do need people to realise that opposing views are not always "negative".
The executive must be open to question. The exexcutive must always have it's ears on! Two ears, one mouth - twice as much listening, half as much talking!
Sure the issue will move on in time, but many are seeing flaws in the process. Those won't go away and sadly keep re-occurring A little more forethought and foresight?
I will always argue for the executive to be able to make executive decisions, otherwise chaos will result. However, it should be understood that not everything requires an executive decision or even a decision.
Sometimes one needs to step back a little from making a decision and maybe even let others make the decision or drive the decision making process.
generally good guys who get on and do a good job with often >difficult but usually rewarding young people, often unnoticed.
Yes for all our efforts on image and value we still remain largely un-noticed.
Very limited success.
I have no problem with that per se.
I think you'll find that Scouting receives quite a large sum of money, however, it's probably nowhere near as much as it should/could receive. When it's looked at on a per member basis it probably is no more than a few quid.
A lot of national "institutions" have been byp***ed by the Lottery; that's not the SA's fault, it's the government's fault. However, I don't see Scouting aggressively lobby the government like many other overlooked institutions for a change in funding policy. It's got to be more pro-active.
Scouting should be in there fighting at every opportunity. It may well be already (as no doubt someone will say), but it's not making a lot of noise!
Difficult decisions, difficult choices, have to made sometimes.
I think many will look at how much Lottery money for example is just sitting there accumulating in the Funding Bodies bank accounts and think what if Scouting had just 1% of this? How many CofE's could be built with this? How many existing sites would not have to be threatened? That's what disappoints people. Now that's a government fault, but what are we doing about it?
Persuasion should already be on-going. Noisy persuasion. Very noisy persuasion!
Sadly even a deaf person would get a headache seemingly with all the noise they can hear us make.
We do keep saying that! Sadly we keep saying it to ourselves!
Of course.
Leader resource is the big issue. It has not been tackled yet as a sole key issue. It seemingly gets subsumed in other issues or left as a local issue.
Watch out for the bandwidth police! ;-) Roast Duck! Very nice.
GAGS

"Stephen Rainsbury" step...@rainsbury.net

They expect to get raw soliders out of their investment, not something that BP had in mind when he started "Peace Scouts" You also have to bear in mind that very few youth groups get much money out of central government either. The Cadet forces are particularly well placed there.
--
--
Stephen Rainsbury SL 8th Gillingham DSL/DESA Gillingham District

"Ian N ford" i...@ford.dircon.co.uk

the I have just received my mailing from London Borough of Lewisham Youth Service. They are offering  >??20K per year for a youth worker to do " street art " with kids. It's part of a measure to divert young people who are doing graffiti. So you pay a worker and supply the materials so they can find a more socially acceptable location for their criminal damage and maybe try to get the Turner Prize in the process.
As far as I am concerned, if there is money for graffiti artists it should go to the police to arest these vandals, and for council painters and Probation Officers to supervise the little darlings when they re-paint the surfaces they have vandalised as part of an " education visit " from their Detention Centre.
The point is that if local authorities did not have these sort of projects but funded the voluntary youth service instead, they wouldn't need the infrastructure to employ, pay, train, supervise etc. the salaried youth workers. Every youth worker paid by the LA has to have a line manager, who has to have support of departments providing  administration, human resources, legal, finance, audit, premises management, health and safety ...
Just a thought ...
Ian Ford GSL 2nd Deptford (Air)

"Stephen Rainsbury" step...@rainsbury.net

Add to this I would like to see:
- On site access arrnaged so that cars can be parked NEAR but not ON each individual site. (Like Thriftwood)
- Good drainage! (??)
- Ground that you can actually hit tent pegs into in under 5 minutes each.
(So thats Kent out)
- Toilets that have been built or refurbished in the last 20 years
- A woodpile with some cover, so if you turn up when its pouring down you can still get a fire going quickly (Never seen one yet)    F * R *  I * E * N * D * L * Y *   * S * T * A * F * F *
--
--
Stephen Rainsbury SL 8th Gillingham DSL/DESA Gillingham District