Spanking: What Would Jesus Do?
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cddu ...@ouray.cudenver.edu (Chris)
Some Christians use the Bible to support the practice of spanking. Especially the "spare the rod" p***age from Proverbs. However, this is an illegitimate use of scripture. Unless these folks are willing to use the same kind of selective prooftexting to support THE BUYING AND SELLING OF HUMAN BEINGS (Genesis 17:13), SLAVERY (Ephesians 6:5), THE BEATING OF FOOLS (Proverbs 10:13, 26:3), THE SUPPRESSION OF WOMEN (I Corinthians 14:34, Ephesians 5:22), SANCTIONS AGAINST MARRIAGE (I Corinthians 7:25-38), INCEST (Genesis 19:30-36), and INFANTICIDE (Psalm 137:9), they'll have a hard time explaining why they single out a p***age from Proverbs in support of corporal punishment. It's hard to conceive of Jesus ever hitting a child. For any reason! The very suggestion is contradictory both to what he taught and the way he lived. When anxious adults wanted to shoo the children away, Jesus rebuked the adults and welcomed the children. "Of such," he said, "is the kingdom of heaven." A popular slogan these days is, "What would Jesus do?" This becomes the most reliable biblical authority for Christians when it comes to hitting children. Jesus just wouldn't do it. Why, then, should we? Rev. Thomas E. Sagendorf Senior Pastor Bexley United Methodist Church Columbus, OH 614-231-2781 (o) 614-235-3302 (h)
Naomi Lynne Pardue npar...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu
Jesus had no children.
Naomi
gl ...@deeptht.armory.com. (Dirt Devil)
[trimmed headers] In article <90r8ip$v9...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>, Naomi Lynne Pardue <npar...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote: Which he *knew* of.
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"Who we are and who we become depends, in part, on who we love."
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balla ...@am.appstate.edu (MeanMary)
Given that shepards used rods and staffs to guide their animals and keep them on the path, not to beat them with, people who interpret "spare the rod" p***age to support spanking are historically challenged, to say the least.
MeanMary
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Copyright 2000 Mary Ballard // I do not speak for Appalachian State U.
// balla...@am.appstate.edu - Kiai!
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We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want... We work with being, but non-being is what we use. Lao Tzu (as translated by Stephen Mitchell).
observer observer_mem...@newsguy.com
"Jesus had no children." Neither, so it seems, do some of the more vocal antispanking zealots. They often seem to be little more than secular monks, or is that monkeys, giving not to be questioned advice on marriage and family.
cddu ...@ouray.cudenver.edu (Chris)
: Jesus had no children.
And your point is...?
Chris
louis ...@homeplc.com (louisa)
does Jesus actually talk about sending people to hell? Most of the Christian ritual, belief systems etc were created by others - most of whom didn't even know Jesus. And of course they incorporate the biases and cultural patterns of that time and place. The most significant founder of the Christian religion, Paul - never even met Jesus. None of the writers of the gospels ever met Jesus.
cddu ...@ouray.cudenver.edu (Chris)
: >Given that shepards used rods and staffs to guide their : >animals and keep them on the path, not to beat them with, : >people who interpret "spare the rod" p***age to support : >spanking are historically challenged, to say the least.
: > : >MeanMary : ... not when you consider that p***age in context with Prov : 23.13-14 and other such p***ages having to do with the harsh : treatment of children: : Prov 23.13-14: "Do not withhold discipline from your children; if : you beat them with a rod, they will not die. If you beat them : with the rod, you will save their lives from Sheol." : Exod 21.17: (A child who curses father or mother is to be put to : death.) : Deut 21.18-21: (A stubborn, rebellious son is to be stoned to : death.) These p***ages are all from the Old Testament. There is no New Testament support for parental corporal punishment of children. Some try to take verses from Hebrews out of context, but when read in context they turn out to be about the heavenly "father" and his earthly "children" rather than advice to parents, and to merely say that earthly children should not lash out at God when he corrects them rather than to command earthly parents to physically punish earthly children.
Chris
joebo ...@aol.com (Piccokuh)
But the quotation came from the proverb saying "The father who spares the rod hates his son." That's not in reference to sheep and a shepherd. Yes, the shepherd used the rod, but it was more of an offensive weapon to be used in defense of the sheep against predators. The staff was used in a manner to guide the sheep like you mention. As for the first post's mention of Jesus never spanking a child and instead asking that they be brought freely to them...they weren't doing anything wrong. Why would Jesus have them "spanked" if they were doing good? No, I'm not necessarily pro-spanking, but I am pro-discipline of a child. Each child responds in a different way, some respond greatly to spanking, some to grounding. We can't simply make a generalization that sets one standard for all children. But we can accept that discipline is required when wrong has been done.
louis ...@homeplc.com (louisa)
the old testament is a primitive document filled with blood sacrifice, slavery, turning one's wife or daughter into a prostitute for guests, daughters conceiving children by their father and an angry God who for no particular reason is about to slay Moses until his wife cuts off a piece of his penis to apease him etc etc -- why do we think these people were any wiser about raising kids by knocking them around with a stick?
louis ...@homeplc.com (louisa)
John is not even an early gospel -- there is no credible evidence that it was written by the apostle.
balla ...@am.appstate.edu (MeanMary)
Perhaps the writer of proverbs was a bad shepard. But, in any case, I have a staff that I'm awful damn good with. So, the next time you misbehave I'll be glad to beat the living shit out of you with it. It won't hurt, right? And it will ***ure that you won't go to hell for your misdeeds. I'm very good at striking with my hands, feet, elbows and knees too, if that'll help you get into heaven. You will not die, but it will save your life from Sheol.
MeanMary, whose favors the Biblical story where Jesus makes a whip, beats the crap out of the moneychangers and throws them down the temple steps like Segal.
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Copyright 2000 Mary Ballard // I do not speak for Appalachian State U.
// balla...@am.appstate.edu - Kiai!
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We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want... We work with being, but non-being is what we use. Lao Tzu (as translated by Stephen Mitchell).
alyb ...@bigassweb.com (alyson)
. The most significant founder of What about Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Weren't they apostles?
observer observer_mem...@newsguy.com
"Christians are typically quite selective about which Bible verses they accept and/or adhere to . . . . " Sounds amazingly like the antispanking zealots and their holy writ.
Pallas pal...@ifeminists.com
We don't know that. In fact, given the cultural norms of the period, it is unlikely that he would ever be called "rebbe" unless he were married and preferably had children. Just 'cause they weren't important enought to be mentioned doesn't mean they didn't exist ...
hamil ...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
absolutely -- the Bible after all was written by people who never knew Jesus but were creating an institution that glorified their own prejudices as well as what they perceived to be the message of their prophet
hamil ...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
you always need someone to connect the dots? in advocating hitting kids because the bible tells me so, it is relevant to point out that this advice comes from the old testament in which all these other idiocies also abound -- duh
hamil ...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
common misunderstanding -- but NO none of them were apostles -- the earliest were written over 50 years after his death -- and they are of course cobbled together from many sources
balla ...@am.appstate.edu (MeanMary)
Dude, I'm just taunting you. Chill.
MeanMary
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Copyright 2000 Mary Ballard // I do not speak for Appalachian State U.
// balla...@am.appstate.edu - Kiai!
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We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want... We work with being, but non-being is what we use. Lao Tzu (as translated by Stephen Mitchell).
doan d...@spica.usc.edu
On 8 Dec 2000, Naomi Lynne Pardue wrote: Not only that, as a convicted felon, if he's alive today he can't get a license to open a day-care center!
Doan
Naomi Lynne Pardue npar...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu
Should have been clear. Given that Jesus had no children, we cannot possibly know how he would have disciplined his children when they misbehaved. His behavior with OTHER people's children (students?
Children of students?) tells us nothing.
Naomi
doan d...@spica.usc.edu
On 9 Dec 2000, Naomi Lynne Pardue wrote: But by Jesus' own lives, he is telling how a son should act toward his parents; unquestioned obedient - even if it's meant death. Other example in the bible is when he turned water into wine at the request of Mary.
Doan
Banty ba...@banet.net
On 9 Dec 2000 14:38:38 GMT, Naomi Lynne Pardue And - - why should we care what Jesus would do??
Banty
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