Compulsory School Attendance
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rmmwisc ...@yahoo.com (R. Menard)
I was curious as to teacher's views on whether education should be compulsory or whether we should adopt a different system in our country. I also want to what people believe the benefits to this new system of education would be.
s ...@pipeline.com (sf)
To piggyback on your post, I believe that the current system of education is broken and no amount of reform will fix it. I am not a creative progressive thinker, however, so I don't have any brilliant ideas about what will benefit those whom we most need to reach. ````````````````````````````````` On 2 Oct 2002 20:58:42 -0700, rmmwisc...@yahoo.com (R. Menard) wrote:
"M. Kilgore" m...@spudmkilgore.com
What new system?
mark ...
"P. Tierney" silviomo...@insightbb.com
I don't think there is a current system. Instead, there are thousands of systems. I've been a part of, and have seen elsewhere, systems that are nowhere close to being broken.
P. Tierney
rmmwisc ...@yahoo.com (R. Menard)
What systems involving compusory education have you found to be successful? I am more interested in regular high schools rather than alternative high schools that may have separate rules for students attending. Do you think that education should remain compulsory to all grades or do you think that we should make changes in the rules regarding this type of education?
rmmwisc ...@yahoo.com (R. Menard)
I was thinking of a new system such as one that would not require high school students to attend cl***es after a certain grade level or one of the other proposals that I have read about, I just wanted to know if anyone thought that any of these proposesd systems would be effective in the US.
"M. Kilgore" m...@spudmkilgore.com
Oh. It seems that what you're essentially talking about is a lowering of the age at which a student can drop out of school. My state doesn't seem to think much of that as we recently raised the age that a child must attend school.
I still don't see where you're talking about a system. What system do you propose be created for those students that might drop out of school past a certain specified grade or age level?
mark ...
"P. Tierney" silviomo...@insightbb.com
I'm also not sure what you mean. What you mention above might change the numbers in school, but not the "system".
P. Tierney
"P. Tierney" silviomo...@insightbb.com
Is this to me? Including the post that you are responding to in your text would help.
As far as I know, *all* high schools require attendance up to a certain age, be it "regular" or alternative. I could list the names of various schools in Louisville, and a few elsewhere, but I'm not sure what it would mean to you.
Also, I'm not sure what your criteria is for "successful".
P. Tierney
Martin Rowley kmrow...@tenet.edu
All these different systems together are in the form of a giant wheel.
The wheel rotates as each system is re"discovered" and implemented as a fix to the current set of problems.
Just because a system isn't "broken", doesn't mean that they won't try to fix it someday.
Martin
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Lee leedoesnotreadt...@earthlink.net
Are you really suggesting that we should lower our standards for how well educated a person should be before we turn them loose to vote and apply for credit cards, etc? Who would that benefit?
"P. Tierney" silviomo...@insightbb.com
I don't follow.
Whether a system is excellent, poor, or somewhere in between, it can be improved. Ideally, every system is trying to do just that, either on a large or small scale.
P. Tierney
"Richard C. Adams" rad...@orednet.org
I think that's JUST what is being advocated. We know we don't reach EVERY child but we give it a shot. Interenational tests of ADULTS show that American adults know more science than European or Asian adults in every country. I kind of have this feeling it's because a higher percentage of our students are in general high school after the age of 14 and not in specialized industrial apprenticeship programs. Then there's the fact that a higher percentage of Americans go to college than any other country so they have another chance at learning.
The American philosophy of compulsary education seems designed to give the most people the most chances at learning the most information, no matter how well or badly the students take advantage of what's offered.
On the other hand, if you are trying to control a population, it would be much more advantageous to just have the adults know just what they need for the requirements of one job the state will dictate they work at.
You COULD ask the kids if they want to stay in school but I'm not sure they're the best judge of what their future is going to be like. Probably a lot of them wouldn't have agreed to toilet training either but older heads decided having a civilized population of toddlers was worth the negative feelings the whole exercise engenders.
So, do you want the children to decide their own future based on their fabulously extensive 15 years on this planet or do you think that this whole primate brain thing with learning is really going to catch on in the civilization/evolutionary scheme of things?
Richard Adams Oregon On 3 Oct 2002, Lee wrote:
alhuriye ...@yahoo.com (Al-Huriyeh)
On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:09:30 -0700, "Richard C. Adams" you're right of course, but there's also this question-- how are you going to get more out of people by requiring less? this has never been explained to my satisfaction.
jzah ===================================== Defining Apartheid http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article689.shtml "(Israel conducts) military attacks on civilians, including those amounting to grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention (namely war crimes) and systematic gross violations of human rights and humanitarian law. Evidence of systematic ethnic cleansing methods and the intention to destroy at least in part the population (i.e. genocide).
Heavy weaponry normally used in full combat warfare is being used against a Palestinian civilian population in situations where there is no military or security need (including civilians in homes, schools, workplaces, hospitals, field clinics, ambulances)."
s ...@pipeline.com (sf)
I thought that was standard operating procedure! Students can legally drop out of school at age 16, as far as I know.
Any attendance after 16 is purely optional, so if a student p***es or doesn't p*** is up to him/her at that point. If they don't attend school and can't show know they know the subject matter, then why should they get a diploma?
"P. Tierney" silviomo...@insightbb.com
I believe the age is on a state-by-state basis. It is also 16 here, but 18 was pushed several years ago, falling short.
I believe that it is 18 in some states.
P. Tierney
Joni Rathbun jrath...@orednet.org
Here in NV one must be in school thru their 17th year - unless they've already completed school of course.
"M. Kilgore" m...@spudmkilgore.com
See http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0112617.html mark ...
toto scarec...@wicked.witch
On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:44:25 -0700, Joni Rathbun http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0112617.html The link above is not totally up to date, but it gives you an idea of the variation. Note, that in many states 5 y os are not required to be in school, so Kindergarten is NOT mandatory though it is becoming moreso as states change the laws. Also note that in many states the ending age is going up rather than down. While it is not currently 18 in a lot of places, that too is changing as legislatures make it harder to drop out of school. Another note, and I am not sure if this is federal or state related, special education students are *allowed* to attend school free until they are 21.
Dorothy
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rmmwisc ...@yahoo.com (R. Menard)
I will just share a little bit about myself before I continue this discussion. I am currently an education student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. For one of our ***ignments we were required to post a thread on a newsgroup that has to do with some issue in education that interests us. I am very interested in compulsory education becuase I just finished reading about it and writing a paper on it.
One of the things that I found when writing my paper is that although many people are happy with the laws of compulsory attendance, that people are looking for better ways to accomodate those kids that need to work at a young age or who think that school "isn't for them". I am not saying that the decision of staying in school should be completely up to the child - parenting should play an enormous role, but I think that there are instances when young adults feel as though they can't stay in school for social or economical reasons.
An article I read about Swedish compulsory education said that K-8 are required and in 9th grade they do vocational fieldwork to better introduce them to career options. Then, grades 10-14 are optional but still remain open to anyone. With this system, there are 90% of students continuing in education beyond 9th grade and the drop out rate is very low.
Basically my question was whether anyone thought that changing our current laws would benefit children by not forcing them to stay in school and would it reduce the drop out rate if we had a system similar to the one in Sweden. I appologize for sounding immature, I was merely asking for opinions and I am not defending anything.
Thanks!
"Ernie Wisdom" ewis...@earthlink.net
This is very timely because it seems that the fed is looking ant more and more early childhood ed via school districts and in urban areas space will be vital.
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Ernie Wisdom Volunteer at Large Downey, CA ewis...@earthlink.net
Lee leedoesnotreadt...@earthlink.net
In some cultures, 15yo's might be ready to be considered "young adults", but in the U.S., we still call them adolescents. A few may be able to make a case for quitting school, but it is so rare that forcing them to plead for special handling seems reasonable.
At that age, far too many kids (and their parents) may be foolish enough to believe that quitting school to get a job is a reasonable alternative when they're really being disastrously short-sighted.
If it were just a matter of risking their own welfare, then you could argue that the government should let them choose, but since these people would be mucking up our economy and our political system, society has the right to tell them to keep trying to learn something.
"M. Kilgore" m...@spudmkilgore.com
On the whole, R., the thread would have gone better if you had provided this information with the initial post.
mark ...
"Mark Probert" mark_probertTAKEMEOUTAH...@hotmail.com
I may be cyncial, and a bit suspicious, but I suspect that he was helped in writing his paper by the whole thread.
...
"P. Tierney" silviomo...@insightbb.com
Ah, Wisconsin! I forgot about you guys. I guess last year, the professor that gave this ***ignment was on sabbatical. ;-) If they work any length of hours at a young age, then they are at least 16. As has been noted, many states already allow dropping out at 16 or 17. I'm not sure how much lower the various articles that you've read suggested that we go.
Maybe, maybe not. But if something "works" in another country, then the overall societal structure may be a reason for that, so comparisons of societies would be warranted to determine if there are enough discrepancies that might cause success in one place, but failure in another.
Comparing one cog of educational systems across nations is riddled with potential flaws.
P. Tierney
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